By Elections: NDP K-W Upset, Liberals Hold Vaughan!

Kitchener-Waterloo: NDP 39.8 /Con 31.8/ Lib 24.0 Vote %

Vaughan: Liberals 51.2/ Con 33.4/ NDP: 11.3 Vote %

For complete results check here: http://electionnightresults.elections.on.ca/rr/welcome.jsp

K-W Record reports on NDP Catherine Fife's "historic win": http://www.therecord.com/news/article/794493--fife-roars-to-historic-ndp-win

K-W Record Editorial explains why "Libs didn't deserve majority": http://www.therecord.com/opinion/editorial/article/794509--liberals-didn-t-deserve-majority

Fife win a "positive change": http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/794515--fife-win-a-positive-change

Foot soldiers won election for Fife: http://www.therecord.com/opinion/columns/article/794432--ndp-stalwarts-worked-hard-and-it-made-a-difference

Ex K-W MPP Liz Witmer breaks silence on stepping down: http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/794316

A good Toronto Star overview of election day results, reactions and implications: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1252723--ndp-take-kitchener-waterloo-block-liberal-majority-as-government-holds-vaughan

Have the NDP become the new Liberals for voters looking for a party closer to the political centre? See: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1253194--walkom-kitchener-waterloo-byelection-sees-new-liberals-outpace-old-one

Star's Cohn reports on impact for party leaders: canada/politics/article/1252711--cohn-ndp-win-in-kitchener-waterloo-byelection-leaves-mcguinty-humbled-hudak-humiliated

Stars Queen's Park Bureau speculates on potential party members with knives drawn for Hudak and McGuinty. See: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1252881--hudak-blames-unions-for-tories-loss-in-kitchener-waterloo

Hudak blames loss on "public union bosses". Yawn. See: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/hudak-blames-tsunami-of-public-union-bosses-for-by-election-loss/article4526251/?cmpid=rss1

Walkom sees through Hudak's hypocritical "union bosses" rhetoric: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1253580--cohn-tim-2-0-needs-to-upgrade-tory-gaming-and-delete-union-scapegoating?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium

Sun's Christina Blizzard speculates Hudak in trouble over inability to unite party and win more seats from beleagured Libs: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/06/byelection-losses-bring-hudaks-leadership-into-question

McGuinty vows won't back down on legislation or public service wage freeze: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-ndps-by-election-win-leaves-majority-outside-liberals-grasp/article4525568/

Steve Paikin's Agenda views Lib + Con fortunes in perspective of an underdog win, then weighs NDP victory as a possible new orange crush or a one off win. Recognizes teacher impact too. A good thoughtful read: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/hudak-blames-tsunami-of-public-union-bosses-for-by-election-loss/article4526251/?cmpid=rss1

Democracy in action: a K-W voter speaks: http://www.therecord.com/opinion/letters/article/794739--political-process-works-beautifully

Commentary + Speculation: A First brush:

The McGuinty Liberal's ultimately created widespread public cynicism with an ill advised gamble to win a majority at Queen's Park by engineering an "education crisis". The McGuinty, Duncan, Broten, DuGood wing hoped they would win K-W with a surprise anti-union attack beginning this spring. Long seen by critics as a pro-teacher party, they attempted an about face beginning with the PDT talks this spring, through the OECTA MOU, to the Bill 115 legislation at Queens Park, in the lead up to today's by-election. Any hope to strip away a riding from Tim Hudak's hard right Conservatives by appealing to soft small "c" conservative right of centre voters with their tough guy stand evaporated quickly. Watch for a split in the Liberal cabinet to widen further, with this unsuccessful about face.

The McGuinty Liberal's did  not learn from the "Great Demise of the Harris Eve Conservatives" in 2003. Instead the MOE [Ministry of Education] took on teachers at their own peril. Ten years of a constructive, co-operative advance in teacher government relations was gambled and was all but lost, gone up in smoke. Was it really worth risking the teacher's strong Liberal support in hopes of winning the K-W seat for a legislative majority, and at best a very slight one at that?

An all ready rejuvenated NDP was left with an empty vacuum to the centre left in the traditional Ontario political spectrum. The win provides great traction for the Ontario NDP. Party leader Andrea Horwath is now on a roll with her increased momentum. The NDP used it's by-electioneering strength to deal the Liberals a very significant blow, with the teacher's support. A by-election is not a provincial campaign, but the NDP managed to increase the parties usually limited resources to maximum effect in the public eye. Well done.

It's bad news for Tim Hudak to lose a Conservative riding Liz Witmer held for over 20 years. He's also lost a popular red Tory Conservative, when she resigned, further pushing the party to the hard right political extreme. Centre right? Centre Left? Fine. Much further either way and a leader looses their grip on the mainstream Ontario voter pulse. Will Conservatives decide enough is enough and drop Tim? The political knifes are out! Watch this story carefully!

For me, any Conservative defeat is a victory for teachers! However, will the Liberal's now move further to the right or the left in courting Conservative or NDP support to maintain it's minority government at Queen's Park? A shift to the right is not good for teachers. Any future Liberal and NDP election split vote is also bad news for us. It could allow the Conservatives to return to power. An NDP government is still not a given, despite it's great success in K-W today. Whatever each party does over the coming months will now become very critical and significant.

So what happens next with Bill 115 in next Monday's legislative vote? It will be very interesting to see if anything changes! And the so called OECTA Road Map? Hmmmm....

In the meantime congratulations to the NDP and Catherine Fife. Tonight's victory is yours to savour!

NDP' Catherine Fife + Party Leader Andrea Horwath celebrate K-W By-election win Sept. 6th

An OECTA Provincial + TSU/TECT Meeting Report

[Saturday news links below. Keep scrolling, but you might want to read this too...]

How odd to meet over an educational crisis during the summer holidays! However our OECTA TSU [Toronto Secondary Unit] and TECT [Toronto Elementary Catholic Teachers] membership did just that on August 22. Meeting with us starting at 1:45 in Toronto's Roy Thompson were OECTA President Kevin O'Dwyer, and Provincial CB [Collective Bargaining] Staff Officer David Church. Also TSU and TECT President's Rene Jansen and Mario Bernardo. The meeting was chaired by Doug McCarthy. Doug did an excellent job of using Robert's Rules of Order, to ensure that everybody had a chance to speak and to be heard in an orderly manner. I'm sure all of us who were there are grateful for a very interesting, informative and thought provoking meeting, regardless of how we might each feel about many of the OECTA PDT MOU [Ontario English Catholic Teachers Professional Discussion Table Memo of Understanding] issues discussed!

You should find the official OECTA reports on the meeting, soon I would hope, at one or all of these sites:

OECTA Provincial: http://www.oecta.on.ca/wps/portal
OECTA TSU: http://www.tsuoecta.org/
OECTA TECT: http://www.tect.org/

In the meantime, I will provide a few supplementary notes and personal observations from the meeting that you might find of interest. These are by no means official or complete. Be sure to visit the other websites above to learn a lot more about the OECTA PDT MOU terms and process, questions and explanations, etc. etc. etc. from the meeting reports. Here is what I saw, felt and heard:

Our TSU-TECT questions and concerns mostly focused on the PDT decision making and ratification process. I understand the members at the Sault Ste. Marie meeting last month focused more on the PDT terms, details and what they meant. Our members were certainly concerned about that too, but the questions were often more individual member orientated than general PDT term or process specific. At any rate the bigger picture will be of more general interest for our purposes here.

President O'Dwyer's and David Church's reviewed the PDT processes in detail to explain them to our members. Suffice to say here that it was acknowledged provincial will be reviewing the OECTA PDT decision making, ratification and communication process used in 2008 and 2012 on a go forward basis.

OECTA Provincial has decided to endorse the NDP candidate Ms. Fife in the Kitchener Waterloo by-election, along with the OSSTF, ETFO, + AEFO. The local Waterloo Catholic unit is remaining neutral in the race. No decision has been made yet on OECTA's possible involvement in Vaughan.

TSU President Rene Jansen and TECT President Mario Bernardo are both on record as having voted against the MOU at the COP [Council of Presidents]. Provincial will not reveal the complete list of how all the various local presidents voted until the first weekend of November. At that time the minutes from the COP meet will be approved, and the information released.

President Jansen invited our members who would like to get involved in changing the procedures to  apply for our TSU legislation committee, with an eye towards submitting motions to that effect at the Spring 2013 Provincial AGM. There are still openings on the committee, so if interested I'd suggest calling the TSU office asap!

The TCDSB got a great deal out of the OECTA PDT MOU since it removes our sick day bank and retirement gratuity, a long term TCDSB goal. Although the trustees voted on approving the MOU nothing has actually been received in writing yet by OECTA to make it official. Hmmm.

The OCSTA [Ontario Catholic School Trustees Association] drew a line just short of the Principals and VP's receiving 3 unpaid PD days, like the teachers, to help eliminate the grid freeze. Otherwise they were intransigent and walked out of the OECTA PDT meeting on July 4th before the MOU was signed. They insisted upon class size caps being removed, mandatory stay after school extracurricular and school PD meetings, and a claw back in benefits, among other demands. They were apposed to fair hire language and teacher professional assessment concessions as an unacceptable violation of their management rights. Wow! Imagine that! And it's all been confirmed!

As an interesting side note, the 3 unpaid PD days are days off. Call them Dalton Days or whatever. Even the Principals and VP's won't be paid for those days, and have no right to tell you to be at school. The 3 days will fall before Thanksgiving, Christmas, and March Break during the 2013-14 school year.

OECTA has asked our lawyer Paul Cavalluzo to review rough drafts of the Liberal "Putting Student's First" legislation due to very serious, unanticipated concerns. The Liberal government is now removing our basic labour rights by tampering with the Ontario Labour Act. OECTA will then carefully consider our next move, after hearing back from Paul.

Should the legislation not pass, it's unlikely anybody will be getting a 5.5% raise. It's unclear if our OECTA members will get back the concessions made in our PDT deal, as per the terms of our last contract, or even whether the MOU then perhaps becomes null and void. Legal minds are looking the ramifications over very carefully, and nothing is certain yet. We'll have to wait to hear more from OECTA Provincial.

MOU ratification process at the meeting. Fair enough. We don't get to vote on it as the procedures stand, so it is in effect a done deal. However, it also seemed to me that a lot of our members were unaware of another very important issue. PDT agreements are now very much a question of provincial verses local collective bargaining. That is a very big picture often missed in trying to contextualize our concerns. It's changing everything!

Since our Catholic trustees surrendered the right to local taxation during the Harris Years, despite an OECTA constitutional challenge, the provincial government is now our defacto paymaster. We must also recognize that OECTA agreed last December at COP to empower our table team to follow our 2008 PDT process for this round of talks. It had worked quite well before. However, the change in the Liberal PDT process, and government demands were suddenly changed on us this spring.

While it is easy to vilify others, everyone was caught by surprise with the Liberals about turn in their previous consultative and co-operative relationship with our teacher unions. It has been very challenging for OECTA to keep up with all the changes, and no matter how one feels, nothing is black and white. The issues are just not that clear cut or easy.

Although a lot of serious questions do have to be asked, please don't expect any easy answers, nor expect simple finger pointing to suffice. We face a lot of very crucial  challenges now, and in the years ahead. Everything, politically and contract wise has suddenly become a WHOLE lot more complicated, and nothing is certain anymore.

In discussions after the meeting, it was very clear to me that a lot of us seriously doubt that the Liberals consider teacher support necessary anymore for their election success. This is a pretty big gamble on their part. Perhaps the soft conservative vote will shift over to the Liberal side with their "Hudak light" version of teacher union bashing. However, so far the polling is anything but certain.

Many members seemed to agree that we need to remind the Liberals we are here, in no uncertain terms. As always OECTA supports the most educational friendly political candidates. Of course, that does not mean now, just like before, that we always support the Liberals. There was even speculation that, as when Conservative Education Minister Don Johnson targeted teachers during the Harris years, it is imperative we strike back. Hence the increasing calls for a combined union effort against the Minister Education in her riding of Etobicoke Lakeshore during the next provincial election.

 If the general consensus is that the PDT MOU deal was made with a gun to our head, in disregard of our many efforts to help Laurel Broten and the Liberal party in years past, then perhaps the decision will be that it is not wise to let the Liberals think they can just write us off and treat us with such blatant disregard. It will be very interesting to see how this about face in our support for Ms. Broten and the party unfolds in the high stake political gamble the minority Liberal government are taking.

Of course it's a dangerous gamble for us to take too. Should Tim Hudak's Conservatives form the next government, we may very well just have "cut off our nose to spite our face", as the saying goes. Possibly the Liberals are even thinking that as they plan their moves, and are squeezing us between a "rock and a hard place?" A lot more hard political discussion and thought will have to go into whatever we do next politically, that's for sure, but in the words of Bob Dylan, "the times they are a changing". Pardon all the phrases, but allow me one last one here. It's certainly a lot of "food for thought."

Provincial seemed to be acknowledged that the OECTA PDT communications with our members since last June requires a complete review. I don't believe the virtual news blackout worked for the best, unless one wants the raucous, inchoate anger often witnessed at Wednesday's meeting. I've often lamented the lack of information from OECTA over the course of my summer blogs. I strongly believe it's resulted in a lot of suspicion and confusion.

I once again encourage you, dear reader, to avail yourself of the news links you find here on my blog and elsewhere, including of course the info on the official OECTA websites. As members we need to educate ourselves about all the many underlining PDT, structural, procedural, political, economic, labour and various union issues at play to try to really understand at any great depth what has/is/will be happening. We are professionals. We can and will think for ourselves.

There has been a very interesting, complex debate raging this summer about all the different PDT issues, coming from a wide variety of different points of view. OECTA has not been very pro-active outside of the small handful of documents that were made available to us on our provincial website private member's only area. Everything else that's been written and said can't just be considered rubbish or manipulation! The larger debate and our member feelings of confidence and empowerment will and are developing in any number of directions with or without our little handful of OECTA provincial info pieces. One remains silent at their own peril!

Both OECTA provincial and our TSU communication plans remain of great interest to me on a go forward basis. There is a new media reality that has been creeping up on us and is now even threatening to overtake our old tried and true methods of communicating with our members like in years past.

I  have always advocated for the new technology of media, be it by Twitter or this blog, as excellent methods to communicate with you, the member's who I represent as your TSU 3rd VP. I believe they help me to be accountable and transparent in communicating with you, much more so than was possible before. Of course, more blogs and Tweets alone are not going to solve all our problems. However, I'm certain that if our unit was less resistant, cautious, control orientated and often downright unaccepting of these new mediums, rather than let's say relying on monthly or bi-monthly hard copy Highlight's newsletters, official office only emails, notices, and little attended public meetings, my blog would never have been of as much interest, nor taken off like it has since a year ago last April.

I welcome the 10,000 new reader visits to my blogsite this summer. I am honoured to be able to provide you with quick, easy access to info about what's been going on, in face of an otherwise near OECTA void on the information front, even if my blog is unofficial in nature. I hope that rather than uselessly try to condemn, or ban these type of useful tools for sharing publicly available information and materials, which are all over the place anyways, we can begin to accept and use them more widely, as a part of our communication plans. Otherwise history will not be on our side, as far as the new communication's revolution is concerned. In maybe other ways too!

Anyway, I begin to ramble. Please keep checking the official OECTA sites. I will posting news links that I hope you find valuable to be aware and wise about all the PDT MOU talk swirling about us. Some new links follow below:

In the News:

OSSTF invite to Queen's Park protest Tusday August 28 12:00 to 1:30:
http://www.osstf.on.ca/upcoming-aug-23-2012

Hudak confirms Conservatives will help Liberal's pass legislation: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-pcs-will-help-liberals-pass-bill-forcing-controversial-teachers-contract/article4496844/

Liberals ask for promise in writing: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/08/24/ontario-teacher-bill-pcs254.html

Huron Superior Catholic board agrees to MOU: http://www.sootoday.com/content/news/details.asp?c=46244

OSSTF President denounces "anti-worker" legislation: http://www.osstf.on.ca/MR-Aug-23-2012

Legal firm of Hicks-Morley reports on new legislation and consequences for school boards: http://www.hicksmorley.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1339&catid=6

An excellent polling study and party prospectus for Kitchener-Waterloo By-Election: 
http://www.therecord.com/news/article/787105--fortress-witmer-under-attack-will-it-crumble

More news links added below and to follow! Be in the know!

Bill 13 + GSA's 2: What Was Said?

The following OECTA press release explains OECTA's support for the provincial government's recent Bill 13 GSA Amendment.  OECTA agreed to provide "a supportive statement given the importance of this matter to the well-being of our students". OECTA's talking points supporting that statement are added afterwards for your further consideration. Also see the legislation itself and Cardinal Collin's statement in my Bill 13 + GSA's 1 blog. Some points to consider are provided at the end of this blog.

May 29, 2012: Catholic Teacher's Support Students Naming GSAs

TORONTO – The Ontario English Catholic Teachers’ Association (OECTA) supports the amendment to Bill 13, the Accepting Schools Act, which would allow students to name a club a Gay Straight Alliances (GSA), if they choose. 

“For our Association, the bottom line is to always meet the needs of our students,” says Kevin O’Dwyer, OECTA president. “Providing safe, inclusive environments and eliminating bullying wherever we can is paramount. If the students feel that a club should be called a GSA – that it makes a difference to them – then, we respect and accept that choice.” 

GSAs are student clubs that provide an opportunity for students, regardless of their sexual orientation, to work together on fostering schools that are respectful and safe places for all students. The primary goal of GSA clubs is to undertake discussion and engage in activities that will make schools more welcoming places for Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Transgendered (LGBT) students and prevent bullying. 

“Many adults have commented on what should be done in schools to help prevent discrimination and victimization of marginalized students,” says O’Dwyer. “The reality is, this isn’t about the adults – it is about the students and student relationships – and we need to empower the students who are a key part of this equation.”

Research has shown that:

• students who identify as LGBT are at higher risk of experiencing bullying and are three times more likely to commit suicide than heterosexual students;

• not using the word ‘gay’ leads to further marginalization of students for whom the word speaks to the core of their identity;  

• in schools where GSAs exist, students have more favourable outcomes related to their school experience and the level of psychological distress they encounter and lower rates of suicide.

“As Catholic educators, we believe that EVERY student is worthy of respect, dignity and love, and we affirm the sanctity of all human life,” says O’Dwyer. “We cannot expect to address a problem if we cannot openly discuss that problem, regardless of how difficult that conversation may be.” 

OECTA represents the 43,000 professional women and men who teach all grades in publicly funded English Catholic schools in Ontario.

For more information, contact:
Michelle Despault, Director of Communications
416-925-2493 Ext. 509
 Email: m.despault@oecta.on.ca  

The following message was sent on behalf of our OECTA President Kevin D'Wyer. It contains OECTA's main talking points for the association's support of the GSA Amendment. The key messaging is:

OECTA supports the amendment to Bill 13, the Accepting Schools Act

For our Association, the bottom line is always meeting the needs of our students and providing safe, inclusive environments and stamping out bullying wherever we cannot about what name a club has.

These clubs are really about students supporting students in the fostering of respectful and safe school environments ­ and if the students want to call their club a gay-straight alliance then we respect and accept that choice.

If having a club called a GSA will help, in even the smallest way, to foster a culture of understanding, encourage respect, and prevent students from being isolated, marginalized or bullied then how could we not support that?

As Catholic educators we believe that EVERY student is worthy of respect, dignity and love and we have an obligation to ensure that our hallways, cafeterias and classrooms are physically and emotionally safe places for ALL students.

These clubs are not about us, the adults, they are about the students so it's not really about what we think these clubs should be called. What matters most is that these clubs, these safe spaces, do exist in our schools.

We know it is not good enough to tell a student that it will get better when they leave school ­ we need to do everything we can to make our schools physically and emotionally safe spaces for our students today.

In addition to the above OECTA legal counsel is examining the matter.

This matter will be addressed further during a special  session of the COP. 

OECTA [Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association]

65 St. Clair Avenue East, Suite 400

Toronto, ON  M4T 2Y8

Tel:  416-925-2493 

Fax: 416-925-6940

Points to consider:

OECTA seems to be stressing that much stronger measures are needed to make our gay students safe at school, than those Cardinal Collin's refers to in his statement [See Bill 13 + GSA's 1: What Was Said blog below]. Our teacher's association is clearly supporting the government's position rather than Cardinal Collins. The only point all three parties can seem to agree upon is that we all want what is best for our Gay students so they are safe from bullying at school. Unfortunately there isn't any similar agreement on the best methods for doing so.

Despite protests to the contrary, the provincial Conservatives actions in the Bill 13 debate at Queens Park, and indeed with their own alternative Bill 14, does not match the public rhetoric of Party Leader Tim Hudak and his MPP's. NDP support in the legislature would most likely see it passed anyway, despite the Liberal government's minority position, and the political posturing of the provincial Conservative party.

OECTA Lawyer Paul Cavalluzzo has pointed out that any teacher assisting with these clubs could face a legal challenge in court. They could possibly lose their teaching certificate if a complaint was lodged at the OTC [Ontario College of Teachers]. The complaints could just as likely come from proponents of either of the side of the GSA issue; for or against.

The Ontario College of Teachers is investigating how to set up a Equity AQ [Additional Qualification] course for teachers who wish to work with the GSA groups. It is far from finished and numerous Catholicity issues for our faith based schools will most likely arise.

The central flaw in the legislation, from a legal point of view, is that it is too vague. Ultimately then, we can assume GSA's in the Catholic Schools will become a Supreme Court of Canada Challenge. It would need to be proven that our denominational rights would be at risk if GSA's were to be allowed in Catholic schools. The separation of church and state would be one issue. Denominational verses human rights would be another. Our denominational rights would need to be clearly defined and then tested in a court of law. This is far from clear cut. Objectively speaking the outcome, either way, could be very uncertain.

The issue of public funding for our Catholic school system has gained much attention from those who would argue that the government is funding a discriminatory religious group, as a result of the current debate. The BNA [British National Act] of 1867 would protect our right to Catholic schools, but continued funding or how we fit within the Ontario school system is less certain. Until 1985 we did not have full secondary funding. During the Harris years the Catholic trustee association agreed to trade off our right to privately collect taxes for Catholic schools in exchange for a promise to extend our per student funding. Unless the Catholic schools decide to revert to being a private system we would not be able to continue as we now exist should funding be removed. Even Cardinal Collins has not been in favour of that happening. [See my blog list below]

In Newfoundland and Quebec Catholic school rights were removed in a public referendum. Would the majority of Ontarians, including Catholics, continue to support our publicly funded schools if the debate were to result in a referendum here in our province?

The Liberal government remains adamant that it will continue to support funding for the Catholic school system. In the past the provincial Conservatives have fared poorly with their plans for Charter Schools and multi faithed funding  for the other religious groups in Ontario. Will other religious groups rally to Cardinal Collins call to protect our faith based rights in Ontario when their own schools do not receive public funding like we currently do? What other political options might be proposed to resolve the Catholic school funding issue once and for all, one way or another, if it arises in our next provincial election, which could be anytime within the next 3 1/2 years?

Of course there are no easy answers, and in the meantime our gay student population need our help, which according to all concerned, is a situation we need to fix. Only one thing is certain: We are all faced with a rough ride ahead!

For more info on the GSA issues please see the following blogs in my archives below this column.

They are:

May 5: RAC Religious Affairs Update: includes my notes on OECTA Lawyer Pal Cavalluzzo's summary of the implications for Bill 13 at the OECTA Respecting Differences Equity Conference.

March 27: Bill 13 Accepting Schools: includes a link to a video explaining the arguments against Bill 13. There is also a link to info on the OECTA Respecting Differences Conference.

March 13: Windsor AGM: Rights and Sexual Identity: includes the other approved OECTA resolutions for Equity and Inclusivity, the arguments given both pro and con, and some discussion on the democratic process at our AGMs.

March : PDT, GSA, Inclusivity + Fee Excitement Ahead: includes info on how Equity Issues have played out at past OECTA AGMs.

January 9 Archbishop Tom Collins Appointed Cardinal: includes my own observations, discussions and experiences with the cardinal, whom I respect very much.

Oct 5 OECTA Diversity, + The 3 Party Platforms: includes an overview of the provincial party platforms and support for our separate schools.

I hope this helps! As Catholic teachers we need to keep very informed on this issue!